Mary Sutherland

Jerry talks with Mary about her most recent book, "The Red-haired Giants: Atlantis in North America."

(This interview originally broadcast live on Inception Radio Network, February 24, 2014)

MP3 Running time: 49 minutes, 50 seconds

Windows Media Version, Part 1   -   Windows Media Version, Part 2

Photos below are taken from the book, many of which are discussed during the interview.


Jerry talks with Mary Sutherland- author, researcher, broadcaster believes that the human race and all life on planet Earth has been and is being held captive by a race of creator-gods known as the Anunnaki. to see a special page Mary created as a companion piece to the show. If you are listening to this show on your computer, we suggest you minimize the player and go the special page and follow along as Jerry and Mary explore the photos and what's happening in Burlington, Wisconsin - the supernatural center of North America.
MP3 Running time:  1 hour, 25 minutes, 55 seconds
Windows Media Version Part 1  -  Windows Media Version Part 2  Windows Media Version Part 3

Details of Mary's Third Annual Vortex Conference over Halloween Week


Several years ago Mary Sutherland gave us a video tour of her Burlington, Wisconsin complex and an over view of her projects.  CLICK HERE to watch this wmv.  

Other Interviews with Jerry Pippin

bullet Mary Sutherland , fellow internet radio talk show host, tells Jerry about another flying saucer crash that happened in Mexico. It was Mexico's Roswell and there was an eye-witness at the crash site. Recorded in July 2004. CLICK HERE to listen to the interview.


bullet CLICK HERE to hear Mary talk to Jerry about her prior trip to Superstition Mountain in Arizona. This program was recorded in Roswell on July 3,2003. Mary left Roswell to go again to Superstition Mountain for some investigative work on alien abductions and underground bases. Scroll down to read an e-mail interview between Jerry and Mary concerning her trip.

The Superstition Mountain Expedition

Transcribed at 4:22 p.m. Sunday, July 19. 2003
For more information from Mary, email her at

Jerry: Hello, Mary and welcome back to the real world.

Mary:  HI JERRY!
Jerry:  How was your trip to Arizona?
Mary: VERY INTERESTING TRIP! 120 degrees in those mountains...HOT! But...when we got to that one spot I told you about, that I found the stone marking, Brad's metal detector went crazy. He beeped right over this one spot that had a very small mound, under these two small trees, exactly where I originally found the stone marking.
Jerry:  Did you do any digging there?
Mary:  We are going back next year with digging tools...GET READY TO DIG JERRY!
Jerry:  I will do the play by play while your husband does the digging,( Chuckle )  
Mary:  I  think I may have found an entrance. At least one of the entrances; need to follow up on it though. I got  an email when I got home that I think you will find very interesting. 
Jerry:  About your trip?
Mary:  Here is the email.

In reading your section on tunnels in various places, I came across mention of tunnels in Victorio Peak--which is true---Because I have been inside many of them-----but, unfortunately, none of them went very far--------However, the main thing that caught my eye was your mention of Hardscrabble Mountain and it's alleged tunnel system---------I say 'alleged' because the story is not true !   There is no cave with 1400 steps descending inside Hardscrabble ! I know this for a fact----it makes a nice story (fantastic and entirely fictitious )  It comes from the supposed experience of Harvey Snow-----and it is a fabrication !! In the first place, the cave is NOT in Hardscrabble ------In the second place, Harvey did not know in which mountain it was located !  He had NEVER been inside it ! I knew Harvey ( now deceased ) and he admitted to me that he really did NOT know where it was----  I know the man who does know, because I have been there with him---and nobody knows exactly how many steps there are, because no-one is known to have gone all the way to the bottom! I know it is a small thing---but I just wanted you to know that in the case of that particular mountain, there is no fabulous tunnel system-------The actual cave is on a  mountain so small it has no name---and it is about 4 or 5 miles south of Hardscrabble------My name is inside the cave !   ( along with others )Just thought you ought to know-----
Dr. Oren Swearingen                                            
Jerry:  So do you know anything about the letter writer?
Mary:  Jerry, what I need to do is contact this Swearingen and find out exactly where this cave is.  I do know he is 76 years old and I don't know if he is capable of making a trip. If his health is good though...maybe he can show us. IF not , maybe he can make a map so that Brad and I can follow it.
Jerry:  Thank God you said Brad and not me. I just don't think I can walk down 1400 steps.
Mary:  While down there though, I came across some girls that said they also know of the stories about the reptilian abductions. They also said they know of an entrance in the 'Fish Creek Canyon' area. Or think they know the general location. They will be working now for BUFO as staff writers and keeping us informed on what is going on in the Superstitions. They told us that a 'grey' was fished out of Canyon Lake. Pinal County Sheriff's dept . came out and recovered the body. Of course the Sheriff's dept won't talk about it. But I need to trace this story down.
Jerry:   I look forward to learning more about this.
 Mary:  Oh, by the way. the video we did on our interviews are GREAT. You will really like them. I think we should do a JERRY AND MARY SHOW. Like Kathy Lee and Regis.(laughs)
Jerry:  That is alright with me, just as long as you don't stick me with Kathy Lee's part. (Laugh)
Mary:  Brad and I both agree, the best part of the trip was making such a dear friend as you. We think the world of you!
Jerry:  Mary, I am still not going to do Kathy Lee's part.
Mary:  Well despite that I will keep you informed of what is going on. I am running your news emails in our bufonews section. I'm trying to put together a collage(?) of Roswell 2003. It is a page with pictures on it. You click the picture and a page will open with information on the pictures, or a video, or an audio file of an interview of lecture we video'd.
Jerry:  We have a UFO photo album on our site too.
Mary:   We have about 6 rolls of film to get up on the net. Audio interviews as well as video productions. Right now everyone is listening to you on my station.

Jerry:  Thanks Mary and we wish you continued success with your shows. Folks here is the link to Mary's wonderful web site: CLICK HERE

In Memory of  Phil Schneider
Survivor of 1979 Fire Fight in Dulce, New Mexico

"Sixty-six secret service agents, FBI, Black Berets and the like, died in that fire fight. I was there."

Brought to you by

Burlington UFO and Paranormal Research

Phil Schneider, one of three people to survive the 1979 fire fight between the large Greys, US intelligence and military at the Dulce underground base, was found dead January 1996, due to what appears to be an execution style murder. He was found dead in his apartment with a piano wire wrapped around his neck. According to sources, it appeared that he repeatedly suffered torture before he was finally killed.  Seven months prior to his death , Schneider did a lecture on the forces he had discovered at Dulce.

This brave man's final acts should not go unnoticed. Below is a synopsis of Phil Schneider. Thank You.


"It is because of the horrendous structure of the Federal Government that I feel directly imperilled not to tell anybody about this material. However I would like to mention that this talk is going to be broken up into four main topics. Each of these topics will have some bearing on what you people are involved in, whether you are patriots or not."

"I want you to know that these United States are a beautiful place. I have gone to more than 70 countries and cannot remember any country that has the beauty, as well as the magnificence of it's people, like these United States."

"To give you an overview of basically what I am, I started off and went through engineering school. Half of my schooling was in that field and I built up a reputation for being a geological engineer, as well as a structural engineer with both military and aerospace applications. I have helped build two main bases in the United States that have some significance as far as what is called the New World Order. The first base is the one at Dulce, New Mexico.

I was involved in 1979 in a fire fight with alien humanoids and I was one of the survivors. I'm probably the only talking survivor you will ever hear. Two other survivors are under close guard. I am the only one left that knows the detailed files of the entire operation. Sixty- six secret service agents, FBI, Black Berets and the like, died in that fire fight. I was there."

"Number one, part of what I am going to tell you is going to be very shocking. Part of what I am going to tell you is probably going to be very unbelievable, though, instead of putting your glasses on, I'm going to ask you to put your ‘scepticals' on. But please, feel free to do your own homework. I know the Freedom of Information Act isn't much to go on, but it's the best we've got. The local law library is a good place to look for Congressional Records. So, if one continues to do their homework, then one can be standing vigilant in regard to their country."

Deep Underground Military Bases

"I love the country I am living in more than I love my life, but I would not be standing before you now, risking my life, if I did not believe it so. The first part of this talk is going to concern deep underground military basses and the black budget. The Black Budget is a secretive budget that garners 25% of the gross national product of the United States. The Black Budget currently consumes $1,25 trillion per year. At least this amount is used in black programmes, like those concerned with deep underground military bases. Presently, there are 129 deep underground military bases in the United States."

"They have been building these 129 bases day and night, unceasingly, since the early 1940's. Some of them were built even earlier than that. These bases are basically large cities underground connected by high-speed magneto-leviton trains that have speeds up to Mach 2. Several books have been written about this activity. Al Bielek has my only copy of one of them.

Richard Souder, a Ph-D architect, has risked his life by talking about this. He worked with a number of government agencies on deep underground military bases. In around where you live in Idaho, there are 11 of them." "The average depth of these bases is over a mile and they again are basically whole cities underground. They are all between 2.66 and 4.25 cubic miles in size. They have laser drilling machines that can drill a tunnel seven miles long in one day. The Black Projects sidestep the authority of Congress, which as we know is illegal. Right now, the New World Order is depending on these bases. If I had known at the time I was working on them, that the NWO was involved, I would not have done it. I was lied to rather extensively."

Development of Military Technology, Implied German Interest in Hyperspacial Technology, and More

"Basically, as far as technology is concerned, for every calendar year that transpires, military technology increases about 44.5 years. This is why it is easy to understand that back in 1943 they were able to create, through the use of vacuum tube technology, a ship that could literally disappear from one place and appear in another place. My Father, Otto Oscar Schneider, fought on both sides of the war. He was originally a U-boat captain, was captured and repatriated in the United States. He was involved with different kinds of concerns, such as the Abomb, the H-bomb and the Philadelphia Experiment. He invented a high-speed camera that took pictures of the first atomic tests at Bikini Island on July 12, 1946. I have original photos of that test, the photos show UFO's fleeing the bomb site at a high rate of speed. Bikini Island at the time was infested with them. Especially under the water and the natives had problems with their animals being mutilated. At that time, General MacArthur felt that the ext war would be with aliens from other worlds." "Anyway, my father laid the groundwork with theoreticians about the Philadelphia experiment, as well as other experiments. What does that have to do with me?

Nothing, other than the fact that he was my father. I don't agree with what he did on the other side, but I think that he had a lot of guts coming here. He was hated in Germany. There was a $1 million reward, payable in gold, to anyone who killed him. obviously, they didn't succeed. Anyway back to our topic - deep underground bases."

The Fire Fight at Dulce Base

"Back in 1954, under the Eisenhower administration, the Federal government decided to circumvent the Constitution of the United States and form a treaty with alien entities. It was called the 1954 Greada treaty, which basically made the agreement that the aliens involved could take a few cows and test their implanting techniques on a few human beings, but that they had to give details about the people involved. Slowly, the aliens altered the bargain until they decided they wouldn't abide by it at all. Back in 1979, this was the reality and the fire fight at Dulce occurred quite by accident. I was involved in building an addition to the deep underground military base at Dulce, which is probably the deepest base. It goes down seven levels and over 2.5 miles deep.

At that particular time, we had drilled four distinct holes in the desert and we were going to link them together and blow out large sections at a time. My job was to go down the holes and check the rock samples, then recommend the explosive to deal with a particular rock. As I was headed down there , we found ourselves amidst a large cavern that was full of outer-space aliens, otherwise known as large Greys. I shot two of them. At that time, there were 30 people down there.

About 40 more came down after this got started and all of them got killed. We had surprised a whole underground base of existing aliens. Later, we found out that they had been living on our planet for a long time, perhaps a million years. This could explain a lot of what is behind the theory of ancient astronauts."

"Anyway I got shot in the chest with one of their weapons, which was a box on their body, that blew a hole in me and gave me a nasty dose of cobalt radiation. I have had cancer because of that."

"I didn't get really interested in UFO technology until I started work at Area 51, north of Las Vegas. After about two years recuperating after the 1979 incident, I went back to work for Morrison and Knudson, EG&G and other companies. At Area 51, they were testing all kinds of spacecraft. How many people here are familiar with Bob Lazar's story? He was a physicist working at Area 51 trying to decipher the propulsion factor in some of these craft".

Schneider' s Worries About Government Factions, Railroad Cars and  Shackle Contracts

"Now, I am very worried about the activity of the Federal Government. They have lied to the public stonewalled senators and have refused to tell the truth in regard to alien matters. I can go on and on. I can tell you that I am rather disgruntled. Recently, I knew someone who lived near where I live in Portland, Oregon. He worked at Gunderson Steel Fabrication, where they make railroad cars. Now, I knew this fellow for the best part of 30 years and he was a quiet type. He came in to see me on it, one day, excited, he told me "they're building prisoner cars.'

He was nervous. Gunderson.. he said had a contract with the federal Government to build 107,200 full length railroad, each with 143 pairs of shackles. There are 11 sub-contractors in this giant project. Supposedly, Gunderson got over 2 billion dollars for the contract.

Bethlehem Steel and other steel outfits are involved. He showed me one of the cars in the rail yards in North Portland. He was right. If you multiply 107,200 times 143 times 11, you come up with about 15, 000, 000. This is probably the number of people who disagree with the Federal Government. No more can you vote these people out of office. Our present structure of government is "technocracy''- not democracy, it is a form of feudalism. It has nothing to do with the republic of the United States. These people are godless and have legislated out prayer in public schools. You can get fined up to $100.000 and two years in prison for praying in school. I believe we can do better. also believe that the Federal Government is running the gambit of enslaving the people of the United States. I am not a very good speaker, but I'll keep shooting my mouth off until somebody puts a bullet in me, because it;s worth it to talk to a group like this about these atrocities".

Americas Black Programme Contractors

"There are other problems. I have some interesting 1993 figures. There are 29 prototype stealth aircraft presently. The budget from the US Congress five-year plan for these is $245.6 million.

You couldn't buy the spare parts for these black programmes for that amount So, we've been lied to. The black budget is roughly $1.3 trillion every two years. A trillion is a thousand billion. A trillion dollars weighs 11 tons. The US Congress never sees the books involved with this clandestine pot of gold. Contractors of stealth programmes: EG&G, Westinghouse, McDonnell Douglas, Morrison-Knudson, Wackenhut Security Systems, Boeing Aerospace, Lorimar Aerospace, Aerospacial in France, Mitsubishi Industries, Ryder Trucks, Bechtel, I G Farben, plus a host of hundreds more. Is this what we are supposed to be living up to as a freedom-loving people? I don't believe so."

Star Wars and Apparent Alien Threat

"Still, 68% of the military budget is directly or indirectly affected by the black budget. Star Wars relies heavily upon stealth weaponry. By the way, none of the stealth programme would have been available if we had not taken apart crashed alien disks. None- of it. Some of you might ask what the "space shuttle" is "shuttling." Large ingots of special metals that are milled in space and cannot be produced on the surface of the earth. They need the near vacuum of outer space to produce them. We are not even being told anything close to the truth. I believe our government officials have sold us down the drain lock , stock and barrel.

Up until several weeks ago, I was employed by the US government with a Ryolite-38 clearance factor - one of the highest in the world. I believe the Star Wars programme is there to solely to act as a buffer to prevent an alien attack - It has nothing to do with the "cold war", which was only a toy to garner money from all the people - for what? The whole lie was planned and executed for the last 75 years."

Stealth Aircraft Technology Use by US Agencies and the United Nations

"Here's another piece of information for you folks. The Drug Enforcement Administration and the ATF rely on stealth tactical weaponry for as much as 40% of their operations budget. This is in 1993, the figures have gone up considerably since. The United Nations used American stealth aircraft for over 20% of it's collective world-wide operations from 1990 to 1992, according to the Centre for Strategic Studies and UN Report 3092.11

The Guardians of Stealth and Delta Force Origins of the Bosnia Conflict

"The guardians of Stealth: There are at least three distinct classifications of police that guard our most well-kept secrets. Number one, the Military Joint Tactical Force(MJTF), sometimes called the Delta Force or Black Berets, is a multi-national tactical force primarily used to guard the various stealth aircraft worldwide. By the way, there were 172 stealth aircraft built. Ten crashed, so there were at last count about 162. Bill Clinton signed them away about six weeks ago to the United Nations. There have been indications that the Delta Force was sent over to Bosnia during the last days of the Bush administration as a covert sniper force and that they started taking pot shots at each side of the controversy, in order to actually start the Bosnia conflict that would be used by succeeding administrations for political purposes."

Thoughts on the Bombings in the United States

"I was hired not too long ago to do a report on the World Trade Centre bombing. I was hired because the 90 some - odd varieties of chemical explosives. I looked at the pictures taken right after the blast. The concrete was puddled and melted. The steel and the rebar was extruded up to six feet longer than it's original length. There is only one weapon that can do that - a small nuclear weapon. That's a construction-type device. obviously, when they say that it was a nitrate explosive that did the damage, they're lying 100% folks. The people that they have in custody probably didn't do the crime. As a matter of fact, I have reason to believe that the same group held in custody did do other crimes, such as killing a Jewish rabbi in New York. However, I want to further that with the last explosion in Oklahoma City, they are saying that it was a nitrate or fertilizer bomb that did it."

"First they came out and said it was a 1,000 pound fertiliser bomb. Then it was 1,500. Then 2,000 pounds. Now it's 20,000. You can't put 20,000 pounds of fertiliser in a Ryder Truck. Now, I've never mixed explosives, per se. I know the chemical structure and application of construction explosives. My reputation was based on it. I helped hollow out more than 13 deep underground military bases in the United States.

I worked on the Malta project, in West Germany, in Spain and in Italy. I can tell you from experience that a nitrate explosion would not have hardly shattered the windows of the federal building in Oaklahoma City.

It would have killed a few people and knocked part of the facing off the building, but it would never have done that kind of damage. I believe that I have been lied to and I am not taking it any longer, so I'm telling you that you've been lied to."

The Truth Behind the Republican Contract with America

"I don't perceive at this time that we have too much more than six months of life left in this country, at the present. We are the laughing stock of the world, because we are being hoodwinked by so many evil people that are running this country. I think we can do better. I think the people over 45 are seriously worried about their future. I'm going to run some scary scenarios by you. The Contract with America. It contains the same terminology that Adolph Hitler used to subvert Germany in 1931. I believe that we can do better. The Contract with America is a last ditch effort by our federal government to tear away the Constitution and the Bill of Rights."

Some Statistics on the Black Helicopter Presence

"The black helicopters. There are over 64,000 black helicopters in the United states. For every hour that goes by, there is one more being built. Is this the proper use of our money? What does the federal government need 64,000 tactical helicopters for, if they are not trying to enslave us? I doubt if the entire military needs 64,000 worldwide. I doubt if all the world needs that many. There are 157 F-117A stealth aircraft loaded with LIDAR and computer-enhanced imaging radar.

They can see you walking from room to room when they f ly over your house. They see objects in the house from the air with a variation limit of 1 inch to 30,000 miles. That's how accurate it is. Now, I worked in the federal government for a long time and I know exactly how they handle their business."

Government Earthquake Device, AIDS as a Bioweapon Based on Alien Excretions.

"The federal government has now invented an earthquake device. I am a geologist and I know what I am talking about. With the Kobe earthquake in Japan, there was no pulse-wave as in a normal earthquake. None. In 1989, there was an earthquake in San Francisco. There was no pulse-wave with that one either. It is a Tesla device that is being used for evil purposes. The black budget programmes have subverted science as we know it. Look at AIDS, invented by the National Ordinance Laboratory in Chicago, Illinois in 1972. It was a biological weapon to be used against the people of the United States. The reason that I know that is that I have seen the documentation by the Office of Strategic Services, which is by the way still in operation to this day, through the CDC in Atlanta.

They used the glandular excretions of animals humans and alien humanoids to create the virus. These alien humanoids that the government is hobnobbing with are the worst news. There is absolutely no defence against their germs -none. They are a biological weapon of terrible consequence. Every alien on the planet needs to be isolated."

"Saddam Hussein killed 3.5 million Kurdish people with a similar biological weapon. Do we, the people of this planet, deserve this? No, we don't, but we are not doing anything about it. Every moment we waste, we are doing other people on the planet a disservice."

"Right now I am dying of cancer that I contracted because of my work for the federal government. I might live six months. I might not. I will tell you one thing. If I keep speaking out like I am, maybe God will give me the life to talk my head off. Eleven of my best friends in the last 22 years have been murdered. Eight of the murders were called "suicides." Before I went to talk in Las Vegas, I drove a friend down to Joshua Tree, near 29 Palms. I drove into the mountains in order to get to Needles, California and was followed by two government E-350 vans with G-14 plates, each with a couple of occupants, one of which had an Uzi. I knew exactly who they were. I have spoken 19 times and have probably reached 45,000 people. Well,, I got ahead of them and came to a stop in the middle of the road. They both went on either side of me and plummeted into a ravine. Is this what it is going to take? I cut up my security card and sent it back to the government and told them if I was threatened, I have been,that I was going to upload 140,000 pages of documentation to the Internet about government structure and the whole plan. I have already begun that task. Thank you very much."

Phil Schneider May 1995

Phil Schneider never got the chance. Dead 7 months later.

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